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[00:00:00] Mike: All right, guys. Michael Hicks here with my friend Enoch Elwell out of Chattanooga, Tennessee. I met Enoch a few years ago through chamber events and local happenings. And he’s been a standout in the community for a while. Anytime somebody is doing something a little different, I want to know about it and want to meet those people. So I’ll let Enoch tell us a little bit about his background, and his start in Chattanooga, and his unique builds and businesses, and then we’ll go from there.

[00:00:26] Enoch: Sounds good. Thanks for having me here, Mike. It’s always good to be with you. So yeah, a little background. I’ve always done things a little differently, I guess. Sometimes for good. Sometimes for frustration. I guess I’m here specifically to talk about some of the tree houses we ended up building, but a little background on that.

[00:00:43] I’ve been a lifelong entrepreneur without knowing really what that meant. I just always wanted to do things unique and a little different. My first goal was to be the best guitar maker in the world, so I trained under some expert luthiers in making guitars. And figured out pretty quickly that if in a community of highly creative people and don’t know how to do anything to actually make the business side work, you’re in trouble. 

[00:01:07] So from that early learning, I ended up plugging in with a network in Chattanooga to help build the culture in the city of Chattanooga, specifically around small businesses. The idea of helping creative entrepreneurs, small business owners, figure out the business side to actually be sustainable in business.

[00:01:24] So spent a lot of time building community, helping people build better businesses. Ended up launching a company. We’re global, actually, and we helped over 30,000 small businesses get started over the course of about a decade and ended up traveling all the time, helping other people pursue their creative dreams, but not doing any of that for myself, not expressing my own creativity.

[00:01:44] So finally, I guess about eight years ago, I realized I needed to scratch that creative itch and decided– my wife and I had discovered on Pinterest that you could stay in a tree house. That was when the trend was just starting. There’s only a few in the country. And we thought, hey, we could do that.

[00:02:00] That’d be fun. We’ll share it with our friends. So we built a tree house. It was great. People loved it. Then fast forward to COVID, I had my COVID moment where I realized, I’m traveling the world, helping inspire people around building community, and expressing your creativity, and building businesses around that.

[00:02:18] I’ve got four little kids at home. I’ve got my family at home, and I’m not actually living what I’m preaching. My life is inconsistent with what I believe in at the core. And so in a pretty big shift, I hired a CEO to run, and my company Co.Starters left the operations of that to focus fully on just building tree houses, and spending time with my family, and doing other unconventional real estate. So that brings us here.

[00:02:41] Mike: I love it. And looking back at your first tree house build and the selection of the land, and talking about being creative, I’m good at seeing what others are doing and then replicating that in my own way. And I guess in a sense, you did the same thing, but I never looked at property like you were looking at it.

[00:03:00] And that was a big hurdle for me when selecting land to build these unique spaces. And once I figured that out, that really made it so much easier to find property, and I think I built a house in the neighborhood, close to where you built the tree houses. and I had seen the property that you ended up with, and my thought was, you can’t do anything with that property. 

[00:03:20] It’s the side of a mountain. There’s rock everywhere, and it’s a difficult place to build. So what can you build there? Treehouse never crossed my mind. What went through the thought process there, and was that property already on your radar? Did you have that property? How did you end up and say, this is the place? 

[00:03:38] Enoch: Yeah. This is a part where I could be one of those pompous fools that makes it sound like I had everything together, and what is it? The hindsight 2020 thing, and talk about my brilliant strategies. But the reality is, like many things in my life, it was accidental design.

[00:03:52] It was the providence of God or whatever you want to call it, where the purpose wasn’t even to have a business. We wanted to create a little retreat, a tree house, a place of escape, a place of adventure, a place of rest for ourselves and our friends.

[00:04:06] And we knew about this property in the woods. It was just a beautiful, magical place. Just a little gorge with a stream going down the side of the mountain, moss-covered boulders. You feel like you’re just in the middle of the Smokies, but you’re only 10 minutes from the center of downtown Chattanooga.

[00:04:22] So we had known about the property because we, actually, when my wife and I first got married, the first apartment we rented was at that property. And so we’d explored those woods before. We’d hiked up the side of the mountain, and you go straight up the side of the mountain, a couple of hours of hiking through the brush, and you end up at the base of Rock City’s waterfall.

[00:04:43] So it was a special place, and we knew it. And so when we had the idea for a tree house, the first thing we did is we called our friend who owned that property and said, hey, can we build a tree house in your woods and share it with our friends? And it was a perfect moment where she said, it’s funny that you called because just the other night, I was thinking it’s time to move on with this property. 

[00:05:06] Enoch: I wanted to go to someone who would do something special with it, and I thought of you guys, and I wrote down your names as someone I wanted to call. And so we just had the chills, and we knew it was the thing. And so we worked out a deal with her and purchased not only the property for building the tree houses but also a duplex that made it cashflow from the start. So it worked out really well.

[00:05:26] Mike: That’s perfect.

[00:05:27] Enoch: Going back to the unbuildable thing, I think that’s what– one of the things that gets me excited about tree houses is because it’s so cool how you can make something that’s unique, that’s inspiring, that’s a getaway, that also makes relatively unusable land or land that doesn’t make sense for most building projects actually be ideal for a tree house. 

[00:05:49] And so all of our tree houses are built on sloping land that would be very difficult to build on without pretty invasive practices. And because they’re perched in actual trees, you can have ramps coming off the side of the hill. And it’s a perfect thing where they’re very accessible and you’re still super high off the ground. Our original tree houses– this background behind me is one of them– have views of a valley. It’s hundreds of feet below you, even though you don’t go up too many steps to get there.

[00:06:19] Mike: Yeah, it’s not bad to get in at all. We’ll talk about permitting and things in a minute, but when you’re out walking, I call it my interview with the land. I think, Pete Nelson calls it the interview with the trees. For me, I go out, and I’ll sit in the woods and just look. And I’ll scribble on graph paper, and I’ll turn that paper one way, and then turn it another way, and think, how does this lay the best to encompass the views, the rocks, everything around me? Is it a similar process for you, or what does that look like?

[00:06:50] Enoch: Yeah, absolutely. I have learned a little bit, trying to get a feel of just the area I don’t know. Let it speak to you of sorts, so I just absorb it, take it in. But I’m realizing now, having scouted a lot of locations for ourselves and others, that there are some basics. I’m more of a creative person, I think, but I’ve also had to do that back and forth of the creative and the practical.

[00:07:13] And so now it’s very helpful to start with the practical of being within a few hundred feet of utility access or having a straight shot to utility access or where septic fields might go. And then looking for groups of trees because all of our tree houses are either fully tree-supported or integrated with trees as the core of their design. 

[00:07:33] And so the minimum is you need at least three trees over 12 inches in diameter, within 30 feet of each other. So I’m actually looking for those groupings that are in good access to infrastructure and then also in the right spacing from each other. So I’ve got a little bit of process now where the first thing I do is I just flag all the groupings of trees in an area that give all the options. 

[00:07:59] And then I start getting more familiar with the flow and feel and see how those interact to see where to go further from there. But to me, it’s mostly around the lay of the land and the groupings of trees and how they would interact with some building. 

[00:08:12] So, for example, this image of the treehouse deck right behind me is seven beach trees all clumping together, making this umbrella with the crown of the trees. And so the treehouse is nestled under the crown of the collective umbrella of these trees. And so the moment I saw, it was obvious that a treehouse belongs right in the middle of this. It was perfect.

[00:08:34] One of our other tree houses, a similar thing. There’s this huge rock jutting up out of the hillside with two giant trees right in front of it and a great view beyond. And so it just made sense that a ramp came right off of that rock flying out to those trees. So sometimes the site tells you what needs to be there. But I’m starting to look at the infrastructure more as a foundation.

[00:08:56] Mike: Yeah, that can get out of hand really quick, running your infrastructure seven, 800 feet up into the woods. You talk about building around rocks. Just getting through rock to get to your structures.

[00:09:07] Enoch: Then once they’re built, not everybody wants to roll a carry-on bag– 

[00:09:11] Mike: Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:12] Enoch: 800 feet up a hill.

[00:09:14] Mike: Yeah, that’s a big point. So you found the land. You figured out what you want to build. How do you go about the permitting process and getting the county on board? There’s so many things that we find. I won’t say find. There’s so many obstacles when it comes to building a unique structure.

[00:09:32] I was told, when I built the first one, that I couldn’t attach to the tree, but I could build around it. The square footage minimums, setbacks, multiple structures on a lot. What are the things that you’re looking at, and how have you found the municipalities to be?

[00:09:49] Enoch: Oh my goodness. I can’t explain why I still have the hair that I do. It’s probably the best way to say it. The gray has come in. There’s no easy answer. There’s no easy solution, is really what it comes down to. I would recommend, and this is where– we’ve killed a lot of projects from the beginning. The first step, actually, isn’t even scouting the land. It’s trying to figure out what the regulation environment is. 

[00:10:12] Mike: Yeah, calling planning and zoning is the first call usually.

[00:10:15] Enoch: Yeah. Or people who’ve built, who are not planning and zoning who can tell you their experience as well. But I think the fact of the matter, regardless of what you get maybe on the first conversation, which may kill it from the beginning– even if they say, oh, yeah, it’s going to be great– it’ll be fine.

[00:10:32] Which happened in our most recent projects, where we worked in the city limits of a pretty complex city permitting situation. It doesn’t matter really at the end of the day, what they say, because there are so many levels of review and individuals who have full authority of their domain that it really comes down to the people and how they choose to interpret the regulations.

[00:10:58] If there’s one thing to be aware of if you’re doing something unconventional is the rule followers in the planning, or zoning, or permitting, they’re just looking for the rule to apply. And when you have something that might fit in two different buckets, it gets really complicated.

[00:11:14] If one department puts it in one bucket, the other department is the other bucket, and then they’re having to reconcile that, where, at the same time, they’re both wrong and they’re both right. And so that’s the most complicated thing. 

[00:11:30] If I have any recommendation, it would be, as much as possible, get the actual people who are touching the project, the decision makers for the different departments, face-to-face, and win them over to understand really what you’re going for and trying to do, so they’re set up to be helpful. 

[00:11:46] And ideally, get the whole group together. The thing is that’s almost impossible to do. It took me more than a year to even be able to talk to each individual who signed off in the last project we did. And that was not without trying. That was staking out in front of their office and harassing them with phone calls and emails for more than a year.

[00:12:07] So I wish I could be more hopeful, but, to me, the only truly effective way forward that you can depend on is if you can get to each individual decision maker in the process, and talk with them, and work it through with them so they can get their head around what you’re trying to do.

[00:12:24] Or they’ll just keep grabbing for random things to apply to your situation when there’s no easy bucket or one bucket for it to land in. I feel like that’s vague, what I was saying there, but I was trying to speak in generality. So I don’t know if you want to go deeper on that.

[00:12:40] Mike: We had similar situations. We were building a house, and I’m used to going in a planning and zoning office and pulling a permit and seeing one department easily. And then you go into a bigger town, and you visit the first window. And once you get past the first window, you get to the second, third, fourth, and fifth, and you’re showing septic, erosion sediment control plans to your site plan, and the facade, especially with commercial projects.

[00:13:08] And they have facade requirements, and shrubbery, and landscape requirements, erosion and sediment control, and you’re dealing with all those things. And you go from a small town where that’s one person, to a bigger city where that’s 15 people. And I don’t know how you get all of them on the same page, but it can really wreck a project when you’re told one thing here and you build that way, and then you get to the end. Tell us a little bit about some of the heartaches on this last build. 

[00:13:39] Enoch: Yeah. Oh my goodness, we got it all. So first of all, we have two treehouse locations, retreat locations. Both of them are actually classified as hotels through the state. We have the full regulation possible. And our Georgia location was actually our first tree house destination that was classified as a hotel in the United States.

[00:14:01] So we were the first ones to navigate legally operating as a treehouse tourist accommodation. Pretty much everyone else, to that point, was, it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. And some of the most known names in the treehouse world have fought legal battles for a long time because of that, and even had structures torn down by the county that we’re in. 

[00:14:20] We wanted to do things right, but man, it’s been a hard road. So yeah, on our latest project, the last tree house we built in six weeks. And permitted it all the way in Walker County. So coming off of that, we’re like, yeah, it’ll be a little slower, but we’ll get it done. 18 months. Crazy.

[00:14:44] And along the way, we went through multiple circles where we thought we had it through. First meeting, we laid out the whole plan, all the hang up points, all the issues that we knew would be a problem and said, this is our plan. I plan to address it. Does this work? Everyone said you’re good. 

[00:14:57] And then we’d come to a dead end where someone would, in a different department, say, no, kick it back. Start over. So we had to reclassify from a commercial project with multiple units to three individual residential units using residential code, which was great. Then bumped us back to a commercial project with three units as one project. So we had to reclassify multiple times. 

[00:15:23] Mike: How far along were you when they switched from residential to commercial?

[00:15:27] Enoch: On our final approval for all of our plans was the first time, and then while we were building was the next time. Then along the way, we had it classified as– there’s a short-term rental permit available in the county that we’re working in, so we had it classified that way. And during construction, they put a moratorium on new short-term rentals. And that included us. 

[00:15:53] The problem was our whole project was approved based on that premise, so we were trapped. And they couldn’t grandfather’s in because we weren’t open yet, but we couldn’t apply for a short-term rental until we’d gotten our CO, so we were literally trapped. And the city said, sorry, you just can’t do anything. 

[00:16:09] So then we found a way forward after much pushing, and that was classifying as a hotel. That bumps us back to start over on everything, even though we were most of the way built by then. It resulted as having to rip apart the walls of our tree houses and put in a sprinkler system in every tree house, and things like that.

[00:16:30] So each individual on the way in the city was actually very helpful, but there’s just so much, I think, confusion around how to deal with something that doesn’t fit in an easy box that the system itself was the problem. In addition to that, the city we worked in, it’s all through an automated platform. You can’t talk to someone. 

[00:16:51] They won’t give you an email address. They won’t give you a phone number. The only way you can ever talk to someone is if you submit a request online. The formula [Inaudible] it, and then somebody will show up sometime in the next two days. And they won’t talk to you. 

[00:17:07] They’ll show up and reject you. And then you have to figure out why. So it’s been very frustrating just with the process itself. When we finally got to the people, it’s easy. It’s just trying to figure out, how do you take something that doesn’t fit in one clear avenue and just figure out which rules apply? 

[00:17:26] Another example was, for a lot of unusual spaces, you’ve got unusual access to lofts. So you might have a ladder or a stairway that’s maybe got a steeper tread than normal. And that was one of those things we went on circles on for months, just because we couldn’t get the right person to talk with us to land it.

[00:17:48] And finally, I just happened to catch the person while he was walking through for something else. And I was like, I’m not going to let you go until we get an answer. And in about five minutes, we got an answer. It was easy. We just went in circles because they didn’t know which part of the code to apply to what we’re doing.

[00:18:06] Mike: And I think that’s the biggest thing. A lot of times, when you’re going and pulling permits, and even in the smaller towns, especially the smaller towns, like you say, you’ve got the black and white. It says this, and they may interpret it a totally different way than you. And a lot of times, articulating your point is one of the ways to get through, and talking to the right people. 

[00:18:30] When you have restrictions and zoning that’s been in place since the early ’70s, and it hasn’t been changed– tree houses weren’t thought of then, or shipping containers, or tiny homes, so there’s a lot of areas where you can’t build under 700 square feet or 500 square feet.

[00:18:48] If you do build, 500 square feet, it has to be all on the main level. No loft space, all these little rules. So calling around and talking to planning and zoning before you buy the land or even get it under contract is important to me.

[00:19:03] When we were buying in Blue Ridge, we looked in LJ, we looked in Blue Ridge, Dawsonville, all the areas down there. We knew we wanted to be near water, but we figured out which counties allowed us to do what we wanted to do, and then we just eliminated the rest.

[00:19:17] And you talk about the lots, and I said seeing, lots that are difficult to build on. At this point, we were looking for small lots. They’re not big enough for a large septic system, so they’re going to be restricted to a one-bedroom home. That’s perfect for what we’re doing. The lot we bought in Tybee Island for the container home we’re going to do down there, it was designated as a boat ramp, so it’s narrow.

[00:19:42] And everything else in the subdivision is wide, so we’re able to put a cool home. We have to build 400 square feet, but a lot of due diligence goes into, can I do this before you ever get to making an offer on the property?

[00:19:54] Enoch: Yeah, and I really feel like the thing that I’ve learned, I guess, is even if you supposedly can, it comes down to the people who sign off on it, and if they have a bad day or not, if they support it, if they want you to do it or not– I’ve seen people mess that up, where it turns into a war.

[00:20:15] I’m going to convince them why I should be able to do this. And I think probably the last thing anybody should do is try to dig in with the one person who can help you go forward. But what I have found is everybody I’ve worked with has wanted to find a way forward.

[00:20:30] They just need to find a way forward that fits their system. And so I need to join them in discovering the process in their system and help them figure out how to make the system work for both of us, which I found, everyone I’ve talked to, very interested in trying to find that way forward. It’s just hard to find.

[00:20:46] Mike: Yeah, definitely agree there. Again, it’s a new concept to most people. And a lot of times, when you walk in the door and mention it, they’re terrified because they don’t know how to answer it. And I think sitting down with them and say, if it’s not a no, it’s, how can we? What can we do together to make this project happen. Because, like you say, most of them want to see it happen. And then the project you did in town is amazing, and it’s going to be a big addition to the area. It’s a huge hit and a great spot.

[00:21:17] Enoch: Yeah, we’re pretty excited about it. And that’s the thing. Everyone we worked with was excited about the project. Their job is to make sure the rules are followed. So they can’t just say, we’ll throw out the rules on this one. They have to figure out how to do both, how to make it happen and follow the rules in some creative way. So not for the faint of heart, I’ll say that.

[00:21:37] Mike: No, it’s definitely a lot of work, especially if you’re going into a bigger city. And that’s what we try to look and find. Okay, where’s the city that we want to be near? And then we’ll look in the perimeter, 25, 30 minutes outside of town. And can we find state parks?

[00:21:54] Can we find local attractions? Are there restaurants nearby? What is there to do in the area? And then we’ll find maybe somewhere they’re a little less restrictive when it comes to zoning. There’s hurdles everywhere you go, but those are the biggest things for me.

[00:22:09] Enoch: And maybe we’re gluttons for punishment here, but we’ve almost looked at the other way around. How can we be in the impossible place that is right in the middle of it, that you think you couldn’t get to, and then find a way to thread the needle?

[00:22:21] Our newest location that we just opened a few weeks ago is five minutes from the center of downtown. It’s just right there, and it has mountain views overlooking the city. It’s just right outside, but you couldn’t get closer to the city and still be surrounded by forest.

[00:22:39] So we’re excited about that, and that’s what we’re looking in other locations around the country. How can we be in that place that nobody could build if they wanted to? But because of the treehouse, we can do it. Like your boat ramp. I think that’s brilliant.

[00:22:53] Mike: What’s next? What’s the growth phase of this? Like you say, when you do things, you do them right, and you do them big. And partnering with other investors across the country to build these tree houses. Is that what the model looks like? Are you building them with others?

[00:23:08] Enoch: Yeah. So going back to what I was sharing earlier about a lot of the idea behind building these tree houses, providing a really exceptional place of retreat and rest, and all that, and doing that with my family, one of the big goals for me is actually not being overly ambitious. Doing a few things well with my family involved, and focusing on quality over quantity here, just making some of the best tree houses in the world and putting everything into them. 

[00:23:39] We’ve turned down a lot of opportunities for the rapid growth plan, building hundreds of tree houses everywhere. And I’m sure it could be done, and money could be made, and something could be cool, but I think we’ve seen some lamping-type models like that go viral, where you can stay in a box in the woods with one big glass wall. And pretty much everyone I’ve heard who’s had those types of experiences, yeah, it was okay, but I’d never do it again. And I’m not interested in that.

[00:24:06] So we’re being a little picky and very much curated here, but yeah, the basic idea is partnering with tourist destinations that already have exceptional land that is just the best of the best in exceptional locations and have built-in audiences, already have people coming to that property, and they’re increasing their type of engagement in different ways.

[00:24:30] So our most recent partner that we just launched a new location with is the Ruby Falls tourist destination here in Chattanooga, where they’re all about providing a very unique experience of an underground waterfall cave. And so they bring in about half a million people a year right outside of the city of Chattanooga.

[00:24:49] And now they have tree houses there, on the property, in the mountainside right up above the cave. Those types of partnerships are ones we’re currently pursuing at destinations around the country. 

[00:25:01] Also working with conservation groups who have incredibly unique preserved land that is in proximity to large cities, and where we can very tastefully build tree houses that fit the conservation ethos and mission and get people on the land to experience these really incredible assets. It’s a strange thing when you conserve land because you’re trying to protect it so that it’s good. 

[00:25:31] But you also want people to enjoy it and be invested in it to care about it. And so how do you get people to interact with conserved land in a way that honors the land? And I really think tree houses are a perfect way to do that. 

[00:25:45] Mike: Yeah. It’s an amazing way. 

[00:25:48] Enoch: I was just going to say that’s what we’re looking at partnering with conservation groups and tourist destinations around the country to make some of the best tree houses out there.

[00:25:57] Mike: Love it. You talked about tree houses making a good fit for the land. One of the things that’s important to us is when it looks like the tree house has been there for years. And you’ve done the same thing. Minimally invasive, less disturbing. You want it to look like it’s been there forever, and I think you’ve done a great job of that. Can you speak to that as far as when you’re going in and building, how you’re going about that process, and making sure it stays that way.

[00:26:23] Enoch: Yeah. First, I just got to shout out to Mike here. Yeah, he’s done an excellent job with all of his builds. It’s hard to get that right, where it’s something that’s unique, that’s inspiring, that’s cool, but also feels right. It’s fitting. And you’ve done a great job of that.

[00:26:42] Yeah. So to me, this is the fun puzzle to figure out. I think the best way I can summarize it is the idea of providing an experience of nostalgia that follows through. And I think what’s tricky about that is, all of us, that thing that we always long for and wish we could have– that is nostalgia.

[00:27:02] But it’s one of those things that you can almost say money can’t buy. It’s really hard to grasp the mist. But it’s the thing we want the most. When childhood was simple and wonderful, and you didn’t have a care in the world, and everything was a possibility, and adventure, and the imagination ran wild, and you could be anything, do anything. The tree house was the pirate ship or whatever.

[00:27:24] And so pretty much either you had the tree house and had all the experiences, or you didn’t have the tree house and wish you did. And so a tree house is almost one of the most powerful symbols of nostalgia and all the things associated with the things that could have been, or the childhood, whatever. 

[00:27:41] The challenge is, if you try to transport the actual experience into today, it totally falls apart. If you actually took your partner and stayed in your childhood treehouse that was six feet long and eight feet off the ground, you wouldn’t even fit in it. It would be rotting around you. There’d be mosquitoes. There wouldn’t be any air conditioning. There’s no toilet. It just doesn’t work.

[00:28:06] And so the idea of the childhood treehouse doesn’t work in real life. It’s an awful experience. But at the same time, you’re still wanting to feel that feeling. And so I think the problem is a lot of, particularly, tree houses that are built and out there now are essentially just a house in a tree or a hotel room in a tree.

[00:28:27] And so it doesn’t get anywhere near actually delivering on a tree house experience. It doesn’t feel nostalgic. When you walk in, your heart doesn’t soar, and you’re like, wow, this is it. It’s just, which hotel is this? Where do I start my key card? That’s what we’re after. 

[00:28:45] And so how we do it, as much as possible, all the materials are either reclaimed or have some story. They have a rich history and past. I like to say they’re not worn out. They’re worn in. You can feel the years of love, and use, and care, and all the different things.

[00:29:03] And also quirkiness. A lot of inspiring places actually aren’t all buttoned up and perfect and just straight lines, and quarters, and everything. A lot of the inspiring places, places that feel like they have an adventure waiting are, the unexplored attic with the strange old things piled up in the corner and the telescope sitting there, and someone’s old, I don’t know, top hat or something sitting in the corner in a stuffed bobcat that looks a little strange.

[00:29:34] And so this idea of something just a little different and inviting some wonder and curiosity and throwing you off your groove a little. Yeah. So we spent years just collecting little things. Everybody’s got the trendy little record player in their container home, or their tiny house, or whatever, and we put out a 1920 Victrola, the real deal, with the points that they actually wear out every time you play a record.

[00:30:05] So it’s not as practical maybe, but when can you actually take a piece of history from a 1900 record that should be in a museum and actually play it and listen to it just like it sounded from back then? So we like to really bring a lot of museum pieces to everyday life and really create something that you can never find anywhere else.

[00:30:26] Mike: That’s the same with us. The repurposed materials has always been a big thing for me. And our floors are out of local buildings, and the door. We’d be through with this treehouse if it wasn’t for doors. And we’ve been online, like, we want a door with some history, or we want an old door. So the house has been finished with the exception of the bathroom tile and the front and back door. I finally found it. 

[00:30:51] Enoch: I can hook you up. Oh, you found one.

[00:30:54] Mike: We found the perfect doors, and it was in Valdosta. I drove four hours to get it. It’s got this doorbell on it that you twist from the outside and rings on the inside. And it’s two and a quarter inches thick, and still got the wavy glass in it. Just a really cool door. 

[00:31:08] But it’s like you’re waiting. We spent an extra few weeks looking for this door, and now they’re building the jam for it. It’s like, man. But you want it to be right. We pulled lathing down out of that building, the same building we took the floors out of, and that’s the ceilings in the lower level of the loft.

[00:31:26] So it’s just those little things, and you do a lot better job of it than I do. The windows and everything you’ve done to these tree houses. But yeah, you talk about making it look like there’s an old pottery studio on the property, and it’s got board and batten siding.

[00:31:42] We brought that same gap, and same width, and same size boards to make it look like it’s been there with the pottery studio the whole time. It’s the little details like that. Then we took a couple of spots on the exterior and put some hardy on it, painting it black and just making it stand out and look a little different.

[00:32:02] So it’s just those little touches that cost you a little extra time, a little extra money. We call it the 95-5 rule. We’re 95% budget, and then that last 5%, we’re just blowing it on the stuff that really makes it special.

[00:32:15] Enoch: You’re doing it the smart way. I think sometimes I flip that around.

[00:32:19] Mike: 5-95. Yeah, I like that.

[00:32:24] Enoch: Yeah. My weakness is trying to get too much into details, but that’s what makes it. 

[00:32:31] Mike: That’s what makes it.

[00:32:33] Enoch: Yeah. I want to hear your favorite detail, and I’ll share mine while you’re thinking of it. In one of our bathrooms, we have a concrete birdbath that I actually found on one of our properties that had who knows how many years of moss growing on it. So there’s just giant concrete basin with moss growing on the whole thing. 

[00:32:52] So we carefully archaeologically dusted off all the little twigs and roots that we didn’t want there, so it was just right, and then we encapsulated the whole thing in resin and made that the bathroom sink. And then we found one of those garden statues, like the little boy holding the fish with the water spreading about his mouth, and we figured out how to retrofit that into a sink faucet. 

[00:33:13] So now the bathroom sink is a garden statue with a little fish that spits the water out into the birdbath with the moss growing on it, and it just makes me happy. So that’s one of the details I love. I want to hear one of the things that makes you happy.

[00:33:30] Mike: To me, the doors are always exciting. That’s why I love what you’re doing. That’s why I love Pinterest and YouTube. You see all these creative projects that people are doing. I follow a guy on TikTok called the Endless Empire. His handrails are made out of railroad track and chains. And anything he can find and salvage, he makes something out of it.

[00:33:52] His light fixtures are all done that way. My dad was that way, or still is that way. He’ll take and form the family name out of a bicycle chain and tack it together. And that’s a Christmas gift. And those are the things that I love. He and my brother are very creative like that and can sit down and do those things.

[00:34:10] I’m more of a see a room and make it function different. So for me, the last tree house we built, we took the plans that we got from Treehouse Masters and then added an eight by eight room on the end, and then encompass it in glass and put the large soaking tub where the tree house didn’t have a bathroom before.

[00:34:29] And then we made the deck bigger, and then we made the deck round, and things like that. I love the hard pine floors and all those touches. And the countertops, we pulled out of the Rock & Country Club in Chattanooga. Just salvage that stuff.

[00:34:43] So those are the cool things that I like reusing, but man, I’d love to have that talent of taking in and using pieces like that. And that’s where if I see it, I can build it. But coming up with that idea, man, that’s impressive. You also have a bathtub that’s, what, a whiskey barrel in a penny floor?

[00:35:02] Enoch: Oh, yeah, that’s right. The shower. It’d be a little small for a bathtub, but yeah. So we got a whiskey barrel from Chattanooga Whiskey and lined it with copper, and we did a penny floor where we had– our first tree house we built, we actually did a Kickstarter campaign, a crowdfunding campaign to raise the money for it and see if anybody wanted to actually stay in a tree house, because at that time, there was only a handful of tree houses that people were renting out in the country.

[00:35:25] And people said yes. it was the first Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign for a treehouse. That worked out, but part of that was we involved everyone in the building process. So we asked people to send their coins from their adventures all over the world, from their travels, and make them part of the penny floor.

[00:35:44] So we have over two dozen countries represented in this floor, and it’s the floor of everybody’s adventures. So little things like that are fun where it’s not just a tree house. It’s a whole community behind it. And, uh, that’s what gets me really excited.

[00:35:58] We have an event series at our tree houses as well, where we’ve had nationally touring artists come and do a little retreat, get away from people, rest in the woods, and then play a little secret concert in the woods. And we do an annual Christmas tree burn where, Michael, I think, you were in the running for bringing the most Christmas trees.

[00:36:17] Mike: Man, I thought I had that. I thought I had that. I went to Lowe’s, and they’re like, hey, do you want to get rid of any Christmas– or do you know anybody that can haul off Christmas trees? And I had a dumpster business, and I thought– they had several hundred trees, and I packed that dumpster as full as I could and backed it up.

[00:36:31] I think it was like 78 trees. And then the winner picked up the other 150 that were sitting there and took them. So yeah, I missed out on that, but yeah, I thought I had it. That was a great party.

[00:36:42] Enoch: Oh man. So I love just the way tree houses symbolize a lot, but they’re also a great way to bring people together for a very unique type of event. So I just love it. Yeah. 

[00:36:53] Mike: You did one with Lodge Cast Iron one time as well. It was a chili cook off. 

[00:36:58] Enoch: Yeah, we did. Yeah. Different chefs came. And yeah, I did a chili cook off. It was Lodge. They were doing a product launches. It was the first product launch they’d done in something like, I don’t know, 30 years or something, and so they did their kickoff event at our tree houses, and it was super fun.

[00:37:14] Mike: That’s perfect. Great marketing as well. If you were going to give somebody a tip, the number one thing you would do if you were going to build a tree house or a unique structure of any kind for that matter, what would be the number one piece of advice you’d give?

[00:37:29] Enoch: Sure. Yeah. So I’d actually zoom out a ton and spend a lot of time thinking on, what is it that you actually want personally out of this? The business I’ve built over the past decade, Co.Starters, is all about helping people figure out their direction, their purpose in life related to business.

[00:37:51] So many people have small businesses, mostly because it seems like a common theme, is they’re excited about something they want to share with the world, or they have a skill that they want to build on, and so they’re pursuing that, and then the financial part is a byproduct of that. It’s like, how do I make money out of this, or how do I make this pay for itself or become profitable?

[00:38:12] Or sometimes people just get into something because, hey, I see an opportunity to make a lot of money here, and then they start realizing, but I hate it. Now I’m stuck. And so I think spending as much time as you can to really wrestle those questions to the ground. What am I actually looking for in this?

[00:38:27] Am I building a tree house because of the income potential by building a tree house? Because I want to make something beautiful. Am I building a treehouse because I want to stay in something beautiful? And I think the more you can push that down and really look at what the practical result will be, fast forward five years from now, what will this look like?

[00:38:45] I think that would really help in determining how you go about the process. For example, does it even make sense to actually do it? Would it make more sense to just stay in some treehouses if you enjoy the idea of a treehouse and not have to do any of the work? Would it make sense to build a tree house primarily as a retreat versus something that would make money or be a revenue creator? Because if you take out a big loan, you’ve got this tree house now that you’ve got to pay back.

[00:39:15] And then you realize, I actually don’t like the business side. I just want to enjoy this for myself. You might’ve backed yourself in a corner. I think a lot of the operations, the business side, it takes a lot. And so starting out, knowing how you’re going to address that, are you going to be the marketer and the cleaner, and the operations person, and filing the taxes, and all that stuff, or are you going to bring in a management company?

[00:39:41] How do you want to do that? I think really thinking through all those details would be the most valuable thing. And then talking with people like Mike, or myself, or other people who’ve gone down that road to put more practical terms to it. Every idea sounds great first go around. 

[00:39:58] Mike: You put it on paper. Yeah.

[00:39:59] Enoch: And I really think– I’ve told a lot of people– the most of the time you’re excited about an idea, you do a few hours of research enough that you pretty much feel good about doing research, but you wanted to do it anyway. So it’s half-hearted attempt to just check the box real quick and say, yeah, this is good.

[00:40:17] I really encourage everyone who’s seriously considering something to do more than 10 hours of research. And that’s not actually all that much, but usually, people stop before the 10 hours. And when you get to about the 10-hour point, you start finding the big issues. You call the zoning guy. You call the county and find out, oh, actually, it’s not going to work like I thought.

[00:40:37] And so I would really encourage pushing a little bit further past that initial, like fun and games due diligence to the really deep, hard, is this going to work? And I think then it’ll really start showing how serious you really are and where the hangups might be. What would you add to that, Mike?

[00:40:53] Mike: Yeah, I think that’s the biggest thing, like you say, figuring out your why. Why am I doing this? What is the purpose behind it? And for us, initially, I wanted to do something so unique, something that nobody in the area had done, and it was more about the project than it was about the revenue or anything else that goes along with it. Now it’s about the guest experience.

[00:41:18] It has become more of, hey, we’re providing something exceptional. People are getting engaged here. They’re getting married here. They’re having elopements, anniversaries, birthday parties, you name it. They’re doing it at these unique locations because of how it makes them feel. So now when we’re looking at a project, we’re affecting people.

[00:41:37] We’re providing a service that makes people feel good, and the income is part of it too. But there’s the people that, I guess, investors, when they look at a project, it’s all about the number, the return on investment, or how many doors does somebody have? And I get so tired of that conversation. And how many doors does somebody have? It’s a matter of relevance. 

[00:41:59] And to me, it’s just a number. The thing is, that person’s 40 doors are not performing as well as my seven short-term rentals. Or if they buy a warehouse, it’s one door, but it’s producing as much as seven rental homes. So I get off on that tangent with the number of doors, and what do you have? It’s a peeing contest. Who has more doors?

[00:42:25] And that’s not where I want to go. I want to provide quality projects and experiences that are like no other. That’s my mission. So figure out what your mission is, what you’re wanting to provide, and then determine what that number is. For us, we want 10 units, and that’s probably going to be it.

[00:42:44] I may take on and build one or two every now and then just to keep me creative and having fun. That’s the other piece of it. It’s an artistic outlet. It allows me to be creative where stick-building homes did not. It’s the same builder beige, or the same gray.

[00:43:02] It’s the same trim. It’s the same tile. It’s the same everything every time, maybe just a little different floor plan, a different roof layout. We built the same house in the subdivision one subdivision six times. And we just changed the roof lines. We changed the pitches. We changed the colors. We changed the rock. But the houses were the exact same.

[00:43:18] That’s great. You can dial in on your numbers really well that way, but man, it gets boring quick. That’s it for me. It’s the ability to do something different, something unique, be artistic, and provide an amazing experience. So that’s huge, is why are you wanting to do it to begin with? If it’s about money, that’s irrelevant to me. That’s not enough to sustain you to keep doing it, in my opinion.

[00:43:41] Enoch: Yeah, I’m with you on that. And it’s not that money is not important. It is, but if it’s just about money, there are so many easier ways to make money. There’s so much work involved. There’s so much heart involved to make something that’s really unique or really inspiring. And if that’s not the goal, then it’s going to show, I guess. 

[00:44:02] Mike: Yeah.

[00:44:03] Enoch: And also, I think it’s important to know, if you’re considering going this path, that COVID, there was an artificial spike, just tons of demand, which then pumped up supply, so now we’ve got a glut of mediocre short-term rentals, and unique short term rentals as well.

[00:44:23] But there’s a lot of people who just saw the money and said, let’s throw something out there. But it’s not very good. If you’re not going for excellence, for creating something that’s an excellent experience for guests, then it’s also probably not going to be a very good investment either in the long term. I think the best will rise to the top, and the rest will struggle. I think that’s maybe a word of caution as well for anyone jumping into the space.

[00:44:50] Mike: If you’re going to do it right, and you’ve got to stand out, and you’ve got to excel. Everybody is upping their game now. If you’ve got existing properties, that’s the only way you’re competing anymore, is upping your game. Everybody has the amenities.

[00:45:05] Everybody has the upgrades. You’ve got really put out a great product. All right, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you hopping on with me and talking shop. I love talking tree houses and unique things. Loved having you on. I know the listeners will too. How do we reach out and find you if we have questions or would like to have that conversation?

[00:45:26] Enoch: You can find me on Instagram at @treetophideaways. It’s probably the best way. And of course, you can come and stay in one of our tree houses. Just go to treetophideaways.com. And come and visit. We’d love to see you in a tree house and talk shop out in the woods around the campfire.

[00:45:42] Mike: Sounds great. We’ll see you next time. Thank you so much.