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[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello. Welcome back another great episode. My name is Sarah Karakaian.

[00:00:03] Annette: I am Annette Grant, and together we are–

[00:00:05] Both Annette & Sarah: Thanks for Visiting. 

[00:00:06] Sarah: All right, let’s kick off the show like we do every week, that’s sharing one of you, our amazing listeners and viewers who are using our hashtag on Instagram #STRShareSunday. If you’re using the tag, we will find you and we will share you here in the pod. Annette, who we sharing this week?

[00:00:19] Annette: This week we are sharing @the_sopris_view_house. The Sopris View House. And yes, I say “the” because I went to the Ohio State University, but back to this STR share. The thing that I want to say about this home, it is in Carbondale, Colorado, so it is between Aspen and Snowmass. And these views, I have not seen a listing recently with these amazing views, and what I love is they are highlighting them again and again on their Instagram. And I want to applaud that because I think sometimes we get nervous that we are showing the same thing over and over again.

Listen, if that is the reason, show them. Show the people what they want. Show the people why they need to stay. I kept scrolling through because I was like, I want to wake up. I want to drink coffee there. I want to set out on the deck and watch the stars. I want to read a book and look at this view. The view alone was enticing me to stay at their property. So find that thing, let it shine. Rinse and repeat. Let people know what’s special about your property, and don’t be scared to show it off over and over again. It truly is– these views are amazing, and if that’s what someone is craving, what they’re looking for, they’re definitely showcasing it.

And the one other thing I want to share is I loved it. They started when they were starting to build this home, and so I was invested. I was like, oh my gosh, they’re putting up the walls. She thought they were going to make it by the holidays. They didn’t make it by the holidays. Shocker, because that’s how it goes.

[00:02:03] Sarah: They never do.

[00:02:05] Annette: Um, it was like, oh, it so cute. She thinks they’re going to open by the holidays. But sharing their story like that, it was fun to see it from the bones all the way to moving to decor. And so well done on starting immediately when they broke ground and to showing the final deck with the amazing view. So check them out, give them some love, and use our hashtag STR ShareSunday.

[00:02:26] Sarah: All right. Let’s get into this show. We have a new format, a little bit, listeners, where we’ve already recorded the episode. This way we can invite you into little fomo.

[00:02:36] Annette: Give you some of the good, the juice juice, the juicy goodness that came out.

[00:02:40] Sarah: What was your favorite feedback from this convo, Annette?

[00:02:44] Annette: This was like a PhD-like session in partnerships and very, very transparent on creating deals with partners and what they look like. And our guest has over 17 different partners, so I think they know a thing or three, and they were very, very open and honest about that. And some things they would never, yes, I used the word never, do again.

[00:03:11] Sarah: All right. On today’s show we have Tony and Sara Robinson. They are a husband and wife team known as The Real Estate Robinsons. How adorable is that? They scaled from 0 to 30 properties– don’t worry, we will dig into how they did that, in less than three years, and they’ve shared their journey on their YouTube channel appropriately called The Real Estate Robinsons. There’s so much more about this couple that we need to share with you if you haven’t already heard of them. So with that, Tony, Sara, welcome to the show.

[00:03:40] Tony: Yeah. Thank you, ladies, so much for having us. I mean, I just got to say, this is such a full circle moment for me, and I’ve shared this with you guys off air, but when we were getting started, there just wasn’t a lot of content out there about investing in short-term rentals. And your podcast was one of the first podcasts that I ever listened to as we got our bearings about becoming short-term rental folks. So thank you both for everything you’ve done for the community. Thank you for what you’ve done for me and Sara, we appreciate you guys a ton.

[00:04:06] Annette: I have to ask, have you left us a review? I haven’t seen a review come through from The Real Estate Robinsons.

[00:04:13] Tony: I got to go back and do that.

[00:04:15] Annette: And listeners, follow the Real Estate Robinsons lead and leave us a review. Shameless plug.

[00:04:20] Tony: To be fair, I don’t think I’ve left them for my own podcast yet either. And I don’t think Sara has.

[00:04:24] Annette: We’ll leave you one. You leave us one. That’s how it works.

[00:04:27] Tony: There you go.

[00:04:27] Annette: Okay. All of our listeners know how important reviews are from everyone everywhere.

[00:04:32] Sarah: She’ll never stop the girl in marketing ever, which I appreciate. Tony, Sara, there is so much to unpack individually, together, so why don’t we start where your journey started separately and then how you brought them together. So you let us know who should start that off, Tony, Sara, and then we’ll bring it into where we are today.

[00:04:53] Tony: It’s hard to start it separately because Sara and I, we’re 32 right now. We’ve been dating since we were 17. So there really isn’t much of a separate. 

[00:05:01] Sara: You always say that. It was 16. We’ve been dating since we were 16. 

[00:05:06] Tony: Go for it. 16, excuse me.

[00:05:08] Sarah: That year, it’s a vital year. I feel you, Sara.

[00:05:10] Sara: Yes. Very critical. It was very heart-wrenching for me. That’s when he broke the news that he got another girl pregnant. So it was very life-changing for me. So 16. 

[00:05:19] Tony: Yeah. So there’s a lot to unpack there. 

[00:05:21] Annette: That’s the, um, after show. We’ll do–

[00:05:25] Sara: Podcast. Yes.

[00:05:27] Tony: Yeah. Our high school–

[00:05:28] Sarah: So good.

[00:05:28] Tony: Years were a reality TV show. Um, but yeah, I mean, our whole adult life we’ve been together. Um, so there really isn’t much separate, but what got us started on this journey, we always had entrepreneurial ambitions, especially me, and once we had climbed the corporate ladder to a certain point and we had enough capital to actually start investing in real estate, we pulled the trigger and we started off doing long-term rentals like so many folks do.

But at the time I had a pretty healthy six-figure salary at a job. And that first short-term rental, we were making a 100 bucks a month in cash flow. And I was like, this is going to take forever. No way that this is going to help me achieve what I want to do. So we made the transition to short-term in 2020, and then it took off from there.

[00:06:09] Sara: Well, I feel like we do have different stories. You kept saying we, but we had very different, um, journeys in our 20s. So we both went to college, majored in different areas, and right out of college, Tony just took off. His career in the corporate world, he just excelled. It was like a rocket ship took off, and I was there watching my partner do so amazing in life. And I was like, oh my God, what the hell? Why am I not excelling at the same speed as him? 

So this went on for a few years, and then he started to get into investing, and then he himself invested in long-term rentals, and that was around the time when we got engaged. We’re thinking about buying our own primary residents. So then that discussion started to become more of a team discussion.

 That is when I just took a step back and looked at what I was doing, and I felt like I wasn’t bringing enough value to this couple ship. So I was like, I need to do something more with myself. What can I do? And he decided to make the transition into short-term rentals at that point, because I wasn’t excited with a $100 he was bringing home with the long-term rentals, and he was like, you are not happy with your current situation at work.

[00:07:24] Tony: Which she was super unhappy at her job. And she had changed jobs a few times, and every time it was like she was in this toxic culture, and I was like, babe, you don’t need to do that. We can build our own thing. 

[00:07:35] Sara: Right. I wasn’t interested in long-term rentals, but then when he mentioned the shift over to short-term rentals, I was like, I know Airbnbs. I know short-term rentals. I know guest experiences. Um, I come from the event space, so it just felt really good for me to dive into this. So that was that. And he hit send on my resignation email, and I think that is when both of our worlds came together. Yeah.

[00:08:02] Annette: Do you two still have any long-term rentals at all? You completely– bye. Closed the chapter there? Okay. Just interest.

[00:08:11] Tony: We didn’t have that many. We had four. We had purchased four over the course of a year, and then when we transitioned to short-term, we sold them all off in that following year.

[00:08:19] Annette: Okay. And then let’s let our listeners– Sarah, and I know this, but we know that your primary residence is in California, correct? Still. And were those long-term rentals in California also?

[00:08:29] Tony: No. We started investing remotely. So we purchased all of our long-terms in, uh, Louisiana. So Shreveport, Louisiana, third biggest city in Louisiana, most folks don’t know about it, but actually had some family that lived out there, and that’s what introduced them to the market. And houses were inexpensive, got some really good debt, but yeah, we were managing remotely from there.

[00:08:49] Annette: Okay. And then where was the first short-term rental? Did you buy it on your own? Was it just an impulse buy, or did you really start to study the markets? Because I know, Tony, you’re a numbers guy, and if we didn’t say in the beginning, he hosts a podcast on BiggerPockets, it’s Rookie Real Estate. And I know that you always go over the numbers. So talk to us about that first property. What numbers were you crunching? What year was it? Give us the details there.

[00:09:13] Tony: It’s such an ironic thing because we actually did zero analysis for that first short-term rental. It was 2020, and after I’d said long-term rentals isn’t for me, my goal was to get into apartment syndication. But as someone who only had four long-term rentals, COVID had just happened, people just weren’t taking a first-time syndicator with very little experience very seriously. So we were sitting on some capital. I had a business partner who was Sara’s cousin actually, and he and I were the ones who were trying to do the apartment syndication thing. And we were just– it felt like we were banging our head against a wall.

We were looking in Arizona. We were looking in Kentucky. We were looking at all these different markets, trying to get our inroads, and we just couldn’t make any progress. Every deal that got sent to us was the worst deal you could possibly think of. So as we’re on the sidelines in the syndication space, we have a friend, uh, Alex Sabio, who I think you guys know as well, Alex bought a cabin in the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee. He came to me and Sara’s cousin and said, hey, I know you guys are thinking about this apartment syndication thing, but I just bought this cabin in Tennessee and I think I’m going to crush it. 

 I’d never even heard of the Smoky Mountains before. I didn’t know where it was on the map. I didn’t know what there was to do out there, but I trusted Alex, and he’s another guy that’s really big into the numbers, and when he said that he was confident in what his cabin was going to do, we just followed him there. We found an amazing property right off the strip of the parkway in Tennessee. Bought it site unseen, and we didn’t visit that property until the week that we took it live.

[00:10:38] Sarah: Okay. I have so questions.

[00:10:39] Annette: I know. No, this is high risk. I like it.

[00:10:42] Sarah: I’m here for that. Sara, what did you think when Tony was like, hey, I got this property site unseen, I’m going to buy it because Alex said it’s fine.

[00:10:48] Sara: Well, he had been doing that already in Louisiana, so I was like, girl, what the hell is Shreveport, Louisiana, first of all? I didn’t even know what that was. So I just know him as a person and know that he does his due diligence first. He would never put us in a financial risk. I know he’s this high-risk taker, but I know he’s not doing it in a way that’ll jeopardize ourselves. So I trust him completely.

[00:11:15] Tony: And I just want to comment on that because we get so many people who come to us as a husband and wife duo and say, Tony, how do you get your spouse on board? How did you get Sara to get along with this? And honestly, it’s what she just said where she says that I trust him completely. And that’s not something that I can put into someone else’s marriage, is that trust. 

And I think if that’s not there, you got to ask yourself, well, why doesn’t your spouse trust you when you say that you want to become a real estate investor? Has there been maybe a history of you committing to things and not following through, then now when you say, hey, I want to take our life savings and put it into real estate, that they don’t feel that that’s a good move? So that’s an important part of what makes us successful.

[00:11:57] Sara: Adorable. Isn’t he adorable you guys?

[00:12:00] Annette: I love that you’re offering that to the listeners because you just said it. You can’t infuse that trust. That’s something that you can listen to all the podcasts, you can read all the books, you can even have all the money, but if the partner doesn’t trust you– and I will say this, I don’t have a partner but I trust my business partners, and I trust the people that I do invest with. So that is something that, Sarah and I talk about this all the time, there are certain things that you cannot put into a spreadsheet. 

And I think that’s something that Sarah, and us from the outside of you, we see that in your relationship. And I can tell that’s been really the main ingredient. If people are like, what’s the secret sauce? I can say that that secret sauce, the trust between you two, it’s very apparent in any of our transactions and being in person with you, online, and what you offer everyone in the short-term rental community. So, uh, listeners, two things. Uh, make sure you trust your partner. And yes, I said I don’t have a partner, so if anybody knows anybody good, you can send us the DMs. Yes, Sarah. Sarah gets–

[00:13:02] Sarah: Oh my God. This is an open invitation to–

[00:13:04] Annette: It’s a funnel. I’m doing a top of a funnel ad here.

[00:13:07] Sarah: That is my dream. Yes.

[00:13:11] Annette: But how many people ask you that though, Tony. It sounds like it’s a common question in your DMs and that you get asked on the show.

[00:13:17] Tony: All the time. I think for a lot of married couples, especially if one of them is drinking the Kool-Aid of becoming a real estate investor, there’s this desire to do it with your spouse. So that question comes up anytime I’m somewhere in-person. I can’t count how many DMs I have. So it is something that comes up quite a bit. 

[00:13:35] Sara: But even the husbands or wives come up to me and ask me, what was it for you? What was that light bulb that went off in your brain? Yeah, I know Tony mentioned you guys, that he listened to podcasts and read all the books. For me, I’m not that person. I’m not a podcast, book consumer, but what I am is a people person. So that light bulb didn’t really go off, for me personally, until he took me to in-person events, free meetups, these, um, short-term rental events, and meeting people like you guys, and Alex Sabio, and other people that were regular humans.

I always thought people that invested were these wizard geniuses with a ton of money that came from money. And you have to be so smart, and just being in a room with people that looked like me, talked like me, and had stories of trial and error and success was so relatable to me, and I was like, I can do this too. We can do this.

[00:14:32] Annette: I love that. He met you where you were like, let’s go hang out. Let’s make it a date night. Let’s go to a meetup and hang out with other people. Because then I think that’s how people are easier, or the influence shines through when it’s more of an infusion and woven instead of ram down your throat. I want to do this, and this is why. It’s like when you can hear the whispers all around you and see the social proof, it’s much more helpful, like you said, in a very realistic setting. So love that.

[00:14:58] Sarah: And how wonderful is that whole self-reflection thing, Sara? I know for a while I had another career before real estate, and knowing that I wanted to get out of that career and not knowing where I wanted to go, because it’s like once you know who you are and what you’re good at, you need to lean into that, not what you’re not good at. You need to find people to help you with what you’re not good at. That whole who not how situation. So that’s so wonderful, Sara. Do you think you– so it was Tony who helped you see who you were outside of your role as an employee?

[00:15:29] Sara: Yeah, it was Tony. And then I think even once I realized that and I was completely into diving in full throttle into this real estate space, into our short-term rental business, I still had that moment of like, oh my God, but I don’t know how to analyze deals. I don’t know how to find the best market. And I was beating myself up for not knowing all the things that Tony was really good at.

And he had to remind me again saying, babe, we’re a duo here. What I’m good at, you don’t need to also be good at. What you are good at is why I asked you to do this with me. I’m not good at that. So I understood that we complement each other really well, and that’s why we have a really good team together. And yeah, for those of you guys listening, you don’t have to know everything. If you have a partner, whether it’s a spouse or just a business partner, if that other person excels in another area, let them run with that and completely own that. Don’t beat yourself up for not knowing those skills as well.

[00:16:29] Sarah: You’re giving so many people permission, Sara, to be themselves, lean into who they are, figure out what puzzle piece that fits into their grander scheme, and then find the people who can help them with the other puzzle pieces. So thanks for doing that. You actually did that too, Sara, on stage at Level Up Your Listing Summit this past– when were we there? February? March? And you said that from stage. You’re like, Tony does the– this is Tony’s role. I do this. 

And it was so refreshing to hear someone just say that, not trying to be this person who does all the things, and knows all the things, and is a one-person show. So I remember that from that conference and you saying that, and I loved it. You’re going to help so many people achieve what they want to achieve because you’re giving them permission to do that. Not that they need the permission, but we all like to have a leader to board with.

[00:17:11] Sara: Yeah. I feel like a lot of us in this space, we feel like imposter syndrome. You see big people that are– I get intimidated by you guys or Avery Carl, women that are just badasses on their own. And I’m just like, I can’t be that. And I’m like, I don’t know how to do that stuff, but I’m my own badass in my own.

[00:17:31] Annette: Yes. Absolutely.

[00:17:32] Sara: I feel like that is a reminder that we all need to hype ourselves up.

[00:17:36] Sarah: A 100%.

[00:17:37] Annette: We’re your hype girls.

[00:17:38] Sarah: Yeah. We are your hype girls, Sara, because– yeah, you are really great at engaging. The minute we met you, we immediately felt like your best friend. And ask Annette, I don’t trust anyone ever. So you were just immediately warm, and welcoming, and open, and I knew that I could be friends with you, and that is such a superpower. So you know that now, and I’ll tell you again. You guys scaled from 0 to 30 properties in three years during/after a global pandemic. I mean, how? Who?

[00:18:12] Annette: Well, as we’re talking about that, did you get bit by the bug at the Smoky Mountains, not a tick, but the bug, this short-term rental bug, did it just bite you immediately?

[00:18:21] Sara: This bug, especially for me, you guys, I was just down afterwards. My eyes, I’ll never forget that weekend we took that property live. We were like– I was shocked. I was like, hell yes, I am in. We are doing this. Delete my resume. I’m never going on LinkedIn again.

[00:18:41] Tony: It was such an eye-opening experience because we went from these long-term rentals that were making a couple hundred bucks a month, and our first short-term rental, so that cabin that we bought site unseen, in the first 12 months that we owned it, we did a little over $150,000 in revenue. I think it was 157. We profited $84,000 that first 12 months that we–

And we only spent $65,000 down payment, closing costs, and furnishings, all in at 65k. And we profited over 80. So when we saw that, we were like, okay, this is a strategy that we need to go into. Now, obviously, 2020, 2021 was a big boom year in a lot of these vacation markets, and we did 136 in 2022 with that same cabin. So it came down a little bit, but we were still at a 90 plus percent cash-on-cash return even after we came back down. So it was like a drug almost.

[00:19:31] Sara: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Annette: Okay. That first house, did you end up buying that with the cousin or was it just you and Sarah? Was place number one with a partner?

[00:19:41] Tony: Yeah. So I’ll give you the structure of how our business is set up. So me, Sara, and her cousin, his name’s Omid, O-M-I-D. The three of us make up our core business, and all of our short-term rental dealings, we’ve done together so far. So we bought that first cabin in Tennessee with just three of us. About a month later, we bought our first one in Joshua Tree. And then, I think a month after that one, we bought our second one in Joshua Tree. So by fall of 2020, we had three short-term rentals in the span of a few months. 

Andit was just with capital we had saved up from our jobs and things that we were doing. And I got a loan in my name, he got one in his name, and then I think his wife got one in her name. So we were just using whatever we could to get the best rates. But then after that third property, we hadn’t even set it up yet, two days before Christmas, 2020, I got a call from my job telling me that I’m fired. We had started this short-term rental.

[00:20:34] Sara: I had left my job to do this. 

[00:20:36] Tony: Sarah left her job.

[00:20:36] Sarah: I didn’t know this.

[00:20:37] Annette: I didn’t know you got canned. I got canned too.

[00:20:39] Tony: I got canned two days before Christmas, 2020. So after that happened, this high six-figure salary goes away. My ability to get approved for additional mortgages goes away. The cash that we do have saved up, it was supposed to go towards buying more real estate, now this is our nest egg now. This is our safety net to hold this over. Um, so we had to rethink our strategy in terms of how are we going to continue to scale if Tony doesn’t have capital and Tony doesn’t have the ability to approve for a mortgage?

So at that point, we had already been building our track record in the community of real estate investors, and we decided to lean into that and to leverage the network that we had built to find other investors to fund the majority of our purchases moving forward. So I lost my job. We had three properties. Over the next 12 months, we added another 13. We finished that following year with 15 or 16 properties, I think, at the end of that next year. And all of that was funded through other investors that we had connected with that funded our purchases.

[00:21:39] Annette: Okay. If you can give us some visibility, is each home one other partner? Is it a multitude of partners? And how does that work out?

[00:21:48] Tony: Yeah. Majority are just one person. We have two properties where it’s like a collective of people. Um, but we like to deal with one person just because it’s easier that way, honestly. And even for the ones where there’s multiple partners, we only talk to one person. That was a requirement for us.

[00:22:02] Annette: Ooh. I like that.

[00:22:04] Tony: And every time we do a partnership, we uncover something that we need to change for the next one. And the way that we’ve structured– and I’m sure it’s the same for you. For y’all is co-hosting. Every time you bring on a new client, you identify something like, we’re never going to do that again.

[00:22:20] Sara: Yeah.

[00:22:20] Annette: Okay, we have to pause though, because let’s make this super juicy. Can you give us three, or whatever you feel most important, someone that’s listening, what is something you would never ever do again in a partnership?

[00:22:33] Tony: I would never rehab a property with a partner. That was the situation. And I love these partners, and they’re fantastic people, but I think it was too many cooks in the kitchen.

[00:22:43] Annette: Okay.

[00:22:43] Tony: And it was me, Sarah, and Omid, so it’s already three of us on our side, and then these partners, uh, there were four of them. It was two couples, two husbands and wives, and two of them, it was their first real estate investment ever. So when you go into a full rehab, there’s just so many opinions that go into that. And we had set that project up. We found the deal. We analyzed it, and the goal was that we would manage that rehab, and then we would manage that property long-term. They brought the capital, and we’d split everything down the middle. So it’d be a 50/50 split. 

So we have 50% equity in this property that we put up no capital in, and is a great deal for us, but once we got to the end of the rehab, I had to sit down, and that whole experience made me feel like an employee again, because I felt like I was answering to these four people instead of us being a partnership. So I sat down with Sarah and Omid and I said, look guys, I know that we just spent four months managing this rehab–

[00:23:34] Sara: I was like, what?

[00:23:36] Tony: I don’t think I want to continue this partnership. And I told them, I was like, hey guys, we’ll help you get set up. We’ll create the listing. We’ll get all your software and everything set up, but once we get you off and rolling, we’re going to walk away. We don’t need any compensation. We don’t need any equity. You take the property, and you make it happen. But it’s that process of trying to manage a rehab with that partner, it was more than what we wanted to do.

[00:23:57] Sara: I would say, for you guys listening, if you clearly state in the agreement what those decision-making moments look like– we didn’t list anything out, so it was just a free for all. All seven of us had opinions and that just created a lot of chaos. So if you do want to rehab with a partner, I would just clearly outline its someone from your team and someone from their team, or however you want to set it up. But I think that is where we messed up is that we didn’t outline where the opinions on all of the small things like, what kind of knobs, what kind of tile. Yeah. That created a lot of headache. 

[00:24:38] Annette: Oh. So you pivoted.

[00:24:39] Sarah: You fired fast.

[00:24:41] Annette: Like boom, move on. Close door. Open more. Clearly, opened a lot more. Okay. That was juicy. Can you give us one or two others? Never again. 

[00:24:49] Tony: I think, uh, another big one is, and this leads into what Sara said, is just being exceptionally clear upfront about the division of responsibilities. So if we enter into a partnership with someone, what are the duties that we’re going to take care of that we do not need to consult that person on? Uh, and then what are the things that if it’s a major thing that we do need to consult with them on?

And when we first started, we didn’t have that clearly defined. And as we went through that process, we started to say, okay, we’re not going to ask them what they think about the mural that we’re painting at the property because that’s a design step. That’s something that Sara’s really good at. We don’t need the partner’s insight on how we’re going to design the property. Um, so just little things like that.

So now the only time you really need to reach out to the partner is if there’s a major capital expense, so like if we need to, uh, I don’t know, replace a roof or HVAC system goes out, something like that, we’re consulting with them. But anything that’s daily operational task, we have full control, full say over what that looks like.

[00:25:47] Annette: Love it. Thank you for sharing that because that’s hours, months, and years of lessons boiled down into a seven-minute–

[00:25:56] Sarah: Listeners, you’re welcome.

[00:25:57] Annette: I didn’t mention how many headaches and probably there might have been some words exchanged between a few people or both of you. Next question is, the deals with your partners, what does the structure look like as far as how often you’re being paid out? What are the returns? Is there an idea? Is it quarterly? Is it monthly? Is it yearly? Is it, hey, we’ll just work on this together? Do you have a system down there? Are they all different? 

[00:26:26] Tony: Totally. So in terms of the structure, we have a few different structures that we’ve leveraged. When we first started, that very first partnership, it was a 75/25 split. So our partner put up 75% of the capital. We put up 25% of the capital. They kept 75% of the equity. We kept 25%, but then we also got a 15% management fee for doing the work on a daily basis.

And we tried that model out for a little bit, and then we just went to a straight equity split. So partners are going to bring all the capital, they’re going to carry the debt. We’re going to split it down the middle. So partner gets 50%. We get 50%. And I’d say the majority of our partnerships are on that structure right now. And it’s just been the simplest. So we don’t take management fees, but we get that equity both in terms of equity growth on the property, and then we also get it in terms of cash flow on a regular basis.

[00:27:12] Annette: Nice. And then I have to ask, because listeners, this is the most important thing on the deal. What’s your exit strategy on these? If it’s time for a property to sell, or one of the partners needs to exit, what’s that look like? Do you have first right of refusal? Is it you just both have to vote on it? What does that– has that happened yet, and what does that look like?

[00:27:34] Tony: Yeah, it hasn’t happened yet. And when we talk about iterating what that agreement with our partners looks like, it was something that we started to get concerned about. It’s just like, hey, what happens if we get into a partnership with someone that maybe they seem good on day 1, but on day 365 they’re someone different? Or what happens if they’re unhappy with us for whatever reason?

So what we added, um, and I want to say about half of our JV agreements are like this right now, is that the default term for the partnership is five years. So unless both partners agree to extend that partnership, we have to sell the property. So that way it forces us to make sure that we’re performing at a high level if we want to keep that property, and it forces the partner to be a good partner if they want to continue working with us as well. So about half of our partnerships are on that five-year hold, and that it only renews for another 12-month period. So then every 12 months, there afterwards, we have to renew that.

For all of our partnerships that are not on that model, it is a right of first refusal. So if either one of us wants out, we have to offer to the person first and get it appraised. I think we have to get three appraisals to assume the value, and there’s some things we have to do to make that happen. But the five-year piece I think was our best solution to that.

[00:28:40] Annette: I don’t want to say it in such a– it’s a choose your own adventure. And that’s what I love, is you can create these deals with whatever works for the partners. And I think that’s why so many people love short-term rentals because they can design the property the way that they want. It’s a choose your own adventure on the way you want to design it with the way that you purchase the property, with the way that you use the property. But I love that you’re being so open with us. I feel like Sarah– I’m taking notes because it’s like, how do we want to structure future deals? So, um, listeners–

[00:29:09] Sarah: Add five-year term. I’m taking voice memos.

[00:29:12] Annette: And then we’re going through all this, I know, because our listeners are detailed. How in the heck are you keeping all of this straight? This is a lot of monies. This is a lot of guests. This is a lot of partners, and my head is spinning just trying to think of all the dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s, and the checks, and the accounts. What’s your team look like? How is your head not swiveling off?

[00:29:39] Tony: Yeah, so the heads do swivel a little bit.

[00:29:43] Sara: Especially the first two years, girl, I’m like, I don’t know how we didn’t end up divorced. Yeah. 

[00:29:49] Tony: Yeah. We were grinding. 2021, after I got fired, those 12 months, me and Sara, we closed on 15 properties that year. We closed inside of 15 properties that year. So it’s like every single week something is happening. And we were closing three properties at a time, so it was a grind, but I think we’re in a bit more of a steady state right now.

[00:30:11] Sara: Yeah. For sure. Thank God. 

[00:30:12] Tony: But the way that we have it set up, we don’t have LLC set up for every property because that would get expensive from a bookkeeping and accounting perspective. What we’ve done is we’ve set up joint ventures for every single partnership, and every single property has its own account. We use Relay, and we love Relay as our business bank. And so every single property has its own opex account. It has its own reserves account. 

And then what I do, just like profit first, on the 25th of every month we have distribution amounts that are set up. So some properties we’re at 60% that’s getting held for opex, 5% goes towards, uh, reserves, remaining 35% gets distributed based on the splits that we have with our partners. Some properties are doing really well. They’re 45% going into opex, 5% going into reserves, and 50% getting dispersed as a profit distribution. So we do that every single month on the 25th for every single property with a partner.

[00:31:01] Sara: And we send pretty thorough emails to the partners on a monthly basis giving them a report of occupancy, revenue, any issues that we needed to correct that month, reviews we’re fighting. So we keep the partners in loop on a monthly basis, right?

[00:31:17] Tony: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:18] Sara: Yeah.

[00:31:18] Annette: I want to go back to where Sara and Sarah really connected the first day that we met, because I feel like, Tony, we’ve given– and listeners, this happens a lot. We’ve given this highlight reel of the revenue, and the growth, changing of lives, but I want to let the listeners know when Sarah and Sara met, it was during a conference in Nashville and Sara, I think this was during your hyper-growth stage, and, um, Sara was doing all of the guest relations. And when I say she was– listeners, you’re going to feel her pain.

 She was feeling it. She was in the depths of the guest relations, and her and Sarah were just chatting that out because they were talking about inspectors and the role. And so Sara, let’s talk about the truth of that growth. What was that for you, and the designing, and trying to get things ordered, and then dealing with the guests, and how that was to manage that from the hospitality side, not the finance side.

[00:32:16] Sara: I mean, it was so exciting for me. Leaving my job, I feel like we took a leap of faith, and then when Tony got fired, we had a really tough discussion. That day, I’ll never forget it, we’re like, well, should we both go and find jobs, what do we do? And he just looked at me and was like, what if this is just a sign for us to really buckle down and bet on ourselves?

Let’s give ourselves 12 months. It’s the start of the new year. Let’s really grind it out and see where this takes us. And I was like, okay, I’m in. So that was our mentality the next year. And, um, yeah, like Tony said, it was just setup after setup, guest issues after next issue. And it was just this new world I got thrown into, and felt like I was just catching fires after fires. So I realized that, girl, I’m pretty good at this. I’m a multitasker. I didn’t drown. I feel like a lot of people would, but it was a moment for me when I realized this isn’t sustainable. I know Tony, and I know he’s going to want another 15 properties every quarter, and at this rate, I will not survive.

[00:33:29] Annette: Every quarter. I love it 

[00:33:30] Sara: Yeah. I will not survive at this pace. I’ve been good now, but I know he’s not going to want to stop so we need to figure out systems and processes to remove myself, to work on the business, not in the business the way I had been. And it wasn’t until going to conferences, like I said, that this light bulb really went off for me, and meeting other really experienced operators like yourselves. I’ll never forget that conversation. And it was that conversation with the both of you. I’ll never forget it when you guys were like, oh yeah, we have inspectors that go for us. And yeah, they do everything. I was like, wait, what?

[00:34:07] Annette: Okay. First of all, I’m going to defend us. We do not sound like that, but I’m sure when Sara heard us at the happy hour after party, it came across like that, when someone’s like, oh yeah, there’s a guest relations–

[00:34:19] Sarah: It’s so easy

[00:34:20] Annette: Personal inspector, on the side texting, what the heck’s going on? So we’re glad we sounded like that.

[00:34:26] Sara: You guys just figured it out. Your operations were 10 times more developed than what ours was. So I’ll never forget just being mind blown that there are operators that were treating this– I think for me at that point, I didn’t even realize this was a business we had created. It felt more of a side gig that we were just hustling, figuring out. 

And then it was meeting people, like you guys, that are treating it like a true business and plugging these people in to help you run this business. You can’t run a business as a solo person. It was that moment that I realized, oh my God, I think we have a freaking business that we created, and we need to start plugging these people in before I lose my shit. Because there’s just no way. 

[00:35:14] Annette: Mm-hmm. What was the first thing that you implemented that took you from feeling like a side hustle to a business?

[00:35:23] Sara: I don’t know. I think improving our tech stack was a big one for me.

[00:35:27] Tony: I think for me, it was just as we started to plug people in. Because, like Sara said, I think up until 15 properties, it was really Sara, me, and Omid, and that was it.

[00:35:38] Sara: Girl, not you and Omid. It was me.

[00:35:41] Tony: I mean just overall. Everyone that was on our team.

[00:35:45] Annette: Uh, I love it.

[00:35:46] Sara: So the way this partnership worked is Tony and Omid were the find the partner, find the property people. And once those got locked in, they passed the baton to me, and I was the set up the property, get the design, guest management, and they were knocking these three partnerships down at a time and handing three batons over to me. 

[00:36:06] Annette: Fiery flame batons. 

[00:36:08] Sara: Yeah.

[00:36:09] Tony: Yeah. So I think for me it was adding the right people into the system. So we have a team that does all of our property set up now. So set up now for Sara’s, one afternoon she’ll go out and she’ll put plants and point out all the things they need to fix.

[00:36:22] Sara: Right. 

[00:36:22] Tony: Before it was me and her in a U-Haul in four days in Joshua Tree setting up a property. So I think getting the people in place on the setup side. We have three VAs that work pretty much around the clock now to do most of our guest communication. We have a property inspector on our cleaning staff now that helped with–

[00:36:37] Sara: All thanks to you guys. Yes. 

[00:36:38] Tony: The inspections. Uh, we have a revenue manager that we hired that’s overseas to help oversee all of our price labs. So just plugging in the people, and now it’s a matter of holding them accountable to following the processes. And then identifying where the processes are broken, giving them feedback, fixing those processes, and just iterating on top of that.

[00:36:56] Sarah: Trust but verify. So you guys have built something really impressive. We are now in the very real 2023. We had the boom of 2021, 2022, which was great. What are you looking forward to? Are we still growing at 15 properties a quarter, 30? Where do we want to go? And then once you answer that, where you want to go, how are you going to achieve those goals?

[00:37:23] Tony: So Sara always makes fun of me because I have these unrealistic, somewhat, goals that I’m trying to achieve. But I want to get us to a billion-dollar-company. So I want–

[00:37:33] Sara: Say one more time, Tony J.

[00:37:36] Annette: For the people in the back.

[00:37:37] Tony: Yeah.

[00:37:38] Annette: Beep, for the people in the back.

[00:37:40] Tony: Yeah. I want us to control a billion dollars worth real estate. And I say that number, and to so many people, it sounds like this unrealistic or unattainable goal, but I know it’s something that’s achievable because I have people that I know in my circle that are marching towards that number super aggressively.

So Brandon Turner, he’s a mentor of mine, and they’re $800 million in assets under management, and they’ve done that in four and a half years. AJ Osborne, someone else that I look up to in the world of real estate investing, they’re close. They’re right behind Brandon marching towards a billion bucks.

So I see these guys that I know, that I feel that I’m just as capable of, that we are, that our team is, and I know that we can march towards that as well. So we’re slowing down a little bit on the single family acquisitions for now, and we’re trying to focus more on larger commercial properties. So, uh, we have a campground that we’re working on closing right now in West Virginia. A big goal of mine is to buy at least one hotel before the year is over. We’re looking on some bigger deals now to try and get towards that goal.

[00:38:38] Annette: Love it. Have you reverse engineered that number?

[00:38:44] Tony: No. So the main goal for me right now is just to get the first big commercial deal. That’s just proof of concept.

[00:38:52] Annette: Take it down.

[00:38:52] Tony: Yeah. And make sure that we get that first one done, and then we can really systematize and grow it out from there.

[00:38:57] Annette: Well, you know we’re not far from West Virginia, so Sarah and I can come down and camp it out.

[00:39:02] Tony: No, check it out. Yeah. We’re building some really cool geodesic domes. 

[00:39:06] Sarah: Ooh.

[00:39:08] Annette: We would love it. Can you tell our listeners, where can they find more out about you guys? Where’s the best place for them to learn about the campgrounds and the hotels?

[00:39:21] Tony: Probably on social. Uh, we link back to everything else on social. So I’m @tonyjrobinson on Instagram. My wife is @sararadrobinson. And then we’re, uh, The Real Estate Robinsons on YouTube. 

[00:39:32] Sara: Wait, I just want to add something before we wrap. For those of you that are looking for partnerships, we didn’t touch on this. How do you find partners? I think that is something that Tony and I have really done well at, is just showing the world what we’re doing, what we want to do through social media. So be your own advocate and blast yourself on whatever platform you are most comfortable with, and that is how you will attract your own potential investors. So start posting today if you are not already doing that.

[00:40:01] Tony: I’m so glad you brought that up because people look at us and like, well, of course, you guys are finding partners because you’re The Real Estate Robinsons, and you have BiggerPockets, and YouTube, and Instagram, but we have students in our program who have 1,200 people following them on Instagram, and just the act of them sharing their journey. Not even because there are these big faces or big names, just the fact that they’re sharing what they’re doing.

[00:40:22] Sara: Hey, I’m Travis. I’m walking through my property today. And now they have people reaching out to them saying, oh man, I didn’t know you do short-term. If you ever want someone to fund or to give you some money for your– and it’s literally happening to people in our program right now, and they don’t need the big following.

[00:40:36] Annette: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:37] Sarah: Because those partnerships are built on proof of concept. And that concept is you with the human, that’s what people are investing in really. Yes, the properties and the returns, but it has to be conducted by someone they trust. And no one–

[00:40:49] Annette: How many partners have you turned down? Are there partnerships that you’ve turned down?

[00:40:53] Tony: Yeah. I mean, I can say on the single family side, we only have, I think 17 partners, somewhere around there, and we’ve probably had over a 1,000 people fill out that form to become a partner. So I mean– yeah.

[00:41:06] Annette: You’re highly selective.

[00:41:08] Sarah: You should be.

[00:41:09] Tony: We try.

[00:41:09] Annette: Yeah, for sure.

[00:41:10] Sarah: Yeah. You should be. It’s a big– not to take it lightly either, these types of partnerships. Don’t be afraid of them. Go for it. And you got to sometimes just trial by error. But also don’t take them lightly. It’s like any other marriage. You have to date a little bit, or not, I don’t know. You do you. Yeah. Any other parting words you have before we sign off? I mean, I could talk to you guys all day, but we got to leave the people wanting more.

[00:41:34] Sara: Just thank you guys. Seriously, you both have played such a critical role in both of our journeys, separately and in separate times. So just thank you guys, like Tony said, for all that you do to the short-term rental community, seriously. I hope you guys know how valuable the both of you are, and how treasured and loved you guys are.

[00:41:54] Annette: Thank you.

[00:41:55] Sarah: Thank you so much.

[00:41:56] Annette: Maybe we can partner together on something.

[00:41:58] Tony: Let’s do it.

[00:41:59] Sarah: It would be good.

[00:42:00] Annette: It would be fun.

[00:42:01] Tony: Yeah. Let’s do it.

[00:42:03] Annette: So good. You guys, thank you so much. This is not the last time that you will see Thanks for Visiting and The Real Estate Robinsons together, either on the airwaves or if you’re watching in-person. This is the first of– well, we’ve already been together a few times, so we’ll keep this relationship going.

[00:42:20] Tony: Absolutely. We’re looking forward to it.

[00:42:22] Annette: Thank you so much.

[00:42:22] Sarah: And we will put all of The Real Estate Robinsons, all the things that they do and are promoting in the show notes. So please check those out. They are chock full of opportunities to engage with the Robinsons and learn from them. So again, thank you so much. With that, I am Sarah Karakaian.

[00:42:36] Annette: I’m Annette Grant, and together we are–

[00:42:37] Both Annette & Sarah: Thanks for Visiting.

[00:42:38] Sarah: Talk to you next time.